TC’s Travel Tips: Get Out And Meet Your Mime Clown With Anthony TC Williams | TNN24

Allen  

Welcome to The New Nomad. We have a very interesting guest today, Anthony TC Williams, Vice President a multinational benefits at Gallagher. Somebody who I’ve worked with over the years, somebody who is a digital nomad. Before it was a fashionable term, frankly, we didn’t know even what it was called when we’ve been traipsing about the United States and other areas in the world. But we’re gonna have some fun today, Andrew, welcome. I’d like to welcome my co host, Andrew Jernigan, who himself has been a New Nomad. And obviously living that digital work of experience, etc. What’s on your mind today, Andrew?

Andrew  

Well as as we enter this fall, it is in I’m glad that we’ve got some, some cooler weather coming and you know, loving, loving the changing of the seasons, some countries we’re in, you don’t have that, the four season. So I’m glad to be in a place where we do have the changing seasons.

Allen  

Well, you know what, it’s funny, you bring that up? That’s one of the great things about traveling and working. I mean, we have people who, well, we’ve talked to many of them, when the weather changes, you know, if you’re somebody who loves skiing, you might be in the southern hemisphere, one part of the year, the northern hemisphere the other part of the year, or if you love surfing, you follow the temperature per se. No, it’s it’s tremendous. How that that is. And I know here in the eastern part of the United States, quite a few people head off to Florida, Phoenix, San Diego, when things start to get cool,

Andrew  

and they leave Canada, and they go to Argentina to enjoy it there. So you know, when, when the weather changes, you know, we’re often the first to jump on a plane and get out of here. So this, the mentality for that is shifting faster than we can keep up with. For companies to say, You’re free to do that. You don’t have to hide the fact that you’re working from anywhere you want to work, because you know people have been hiding. I talked to someone recently saying, you know, I’m not telling my company that I’m actually working on keeping my health plan in California, just so that HR doesn’t actually get upset that I’m in Costa Rica. And they’ve got an international health insurance plan, in addition to their Kaiser Permanente plan that they had. So it’s a good thing that as the weather has shifted, and people have skipped town, that companies are on the same speed of saying it’s okay, tell us.

Allen  

Very much so so why don’t we bring TC in the conversation? Because I know TC has been working quite a bit with companies that are making some of these adjustments and changes you know. TC a just listening to your moderation of the IBIS conference. That’s International Benefit Insurance Services, I believe it is. And, and I know that you’ve been working with many folks and yourself being a early adopter to the digital world. Welcome to The New Nomad. And, you know, as we talk about how companies change, what are you seeing out there that’s of interest?

TC  

Well, first things first. I appreciate the opportunity, gentlemen, for for so many reasons. One, it’s great to connect and be with you guys to the the best and brightest and to men of distinction and tastes that i think that i think the world have. And then second, I’ll tell you in all transparency. Allen, you actually got me as we’ve been traveling around for years. You got me on the kick of podcasts, and I am a I’m an avid podcast subscriber and listener and I certainly miss being in planes, trains and automobiles, listen to those podcasts. But this is my first podcast experience of being on one so thank you for the opportunity this suits – this is so cool. And but but to your but to your question, there’s there’s a lot changing. There’s things that we have to be considered or you know, be considerate of is no matter where you’re at, no matter where you’re traveling, or hope to be traveling to no matter where you’re working from or where people think you’re working. Yeah, there’s a lot that has to be considered, not just personally but specifically, benefit wise, tax, culture, language, and a lot of these aspects are very big covered on a lot of the podcasts so I won’t, I won’t steal their thunder. But there’s certainly a lot to consider.

Allen  

Well, you know, in you and I have worked with a lot of folks obviously more in the health, wellness, mental health area and one of the things I’m hearing more from folks is Is the transition that a lot of organizations have to make, for instance, they used to subsidize the corporate cafeteria. But if everybody’s working remotely, that’s less important than providing people with coverage, like added mental health, substance abuse, because a lot of times there might be anxiety or people don’t feel like there’s connected. So are you seeing many of those same trends? And and are your customers also having more and more conversation about the lack of importance of a physical address?

TC  

Yeah, so that’s so, so great, ask the pandemic, as certainly created a lot of a lot of ripple effects, how organizations support their people, their people strategies, their total rewards, strategies and their philosophies, how they invest their dollars towards their people. I mean, we’ve seen, again, whether it be through the mental health aspect, which support a lot of clients over the past 15-18 months with a pandemic, with the advancement of very robust mental health strategies, both at an individual level, in a really at the human scale. And then, of course, across the organization. Because of, we were just in the middle of one pandemic, we were in the middle of multiple pandemics. So organizations, for obvious reasons, were supporting the physical aspect and the benefit and everything in around COVID-19. But the mental health aspect was was was a key aspect. Diversity and Inclusion, obviously, you know, another huge pandemic, that the social injustice, or the social justice aspect that we had that had that we had to keep keep top of mind and have to always keep top of mind on a go forward basis. So the mental health piece is is is a big piece where organizations, individuals, but organizations need to really focus their efforts. The second one, you know, telehealth and those respective capabilities, the continued support that organizations need to provide from a travel and from a mobility perspective in and around the, not just the benefit, but also for vaccines and the and the continued tracking, and the advisories and vaccines and documentation in country and what’s required just to be able to freely move about the cabin of life. 

But to your ask, and we’ve got a number of organizations, one in particular that I’ll share that. 

And again, I’ll protect the anonymous, I bet large or growing Midwest firm, not quite startup. But they’ve been around for a number of years. And if I threw the name, everybody would go Oh, wow, I know exactly who they are and what they do, and I’ve probably utilize their services anyway. But this particular organization, large in a large Midwest town has actually made two interesting decisions from an organizational perspective that they brought forward to us and obviously impacts them globally. And number one, as it said, we’re not going to have a physical address anymore. And number two, our total rewards strategy and philosophy is that our people are going to be able to work from anywhere, wherever they want, whether it’s cross state, whether it’s cross border and we said uh huh and the good thing is again, it’s a newer client to to our to our firm on the on the multinational side but luckily we were already in the midst of conversations and supporting them from for their for their global travel programs and their their expanded mobility program so that was already a black step. But it was the wait hold on a sec. 

That here’s what you need to consider from from a tax perspective not just at the organizational level but at the individual level as well because yes, we’ve got it we’ve had it we’ve had individuals that are working from anywhere over the past 18 plus months with the with the pandemic but organizations are having these aha moments because they they’ve got people that are working in countries are going back to their home countries and continuing to work that the organization may not have an established entity in those countries which obviously kickstart some some tax implications and some considerations and and then same thing for the individuals and so, so a lot of considerations that both individuals and organizations need to need to keep in mind from this from this work from anywhere strategy. 

And the other piece is that when organizations consider that, they need to or whether their people consider that without the organizational without the organization considering that, your organization is in the individual needs to look kind of look in the mirror and understand what the you know, the makeup of the organization and whether that organization will even support that If they can even support it work from anywhere. Because I mean, that’s different from a tech organization versus that maybe a manufacturer that needs people in the in the, you know, physically in place to help advance along their products and within their distribution when not. So there’s a lot that goes into it.

Andrew  

Yeah, it’s, it’s interesting, what my last phone call before before this recording was actually a company saying, Hey, we’re we want to establish a virtual office in in the city. Because we have folks in and out of the place. And previously, I think a lot of times the mindset was, we can do a we work, we can do a Regus office, or an anytime mailbox. But you know, there’s so much more to it for paying all the taxes to being regulated regulatory hurdles, and, and making sure you got an employer of record and all these other things in place. And so there are a lot of dynamics that are these folks that are going officeless that they have to keep in mind, whether it’s making sure their insurance company is is authorized for ever covering their employees in the Middle East, or in whatever region of the world that we’re looking at. So yes, office was, is simple. Now. It’s a cost savings. But is it? You know, Allen, I know that you were you were talking about that yesterday? Yeah.

Allen  

It’s interesting. And I know, and TC and I have had many conversations about obviously, you know, somebody who’s on the road as much as TC has in his career, or all of us, you know, we didn’t think of ourselves as digital or location independent. So this transition, maybe it’s been easier for us. But there’s there’s a lot of organizations that don’t quite have that. And, and one of the things I’d love to ask TC is, TC, I remember back, you went to a conference overseas. And it literally was a week after there had been a terrorist attack in that city. And I know there’s people are going to be listening to the podcast on because they’re in many unique locations. And I remember there was a lot of conversation we had about sending a member of our team into a location where something that happened, could you just share with our audience a bit about how it may have changed your thinking, but also how you prepared perhaps differently because a lot of the people that were with your go to very interesting places, and I think you’re somebody who has a unique ability to kind of like, share with people some best practices.

TC  

Yeah, so great, great ask. And, and the good news is everything turned out just fine. It was an amazing trip. Very rewarding, incredible experiences, great memories, but no, you’re absolutely correct. I was sandwiched sandwiched between two very interesting circumstances. So yes, it was a trip to France. It was so here’s the here are the two pieces of bread one was it was less than a year from celebrating the the the events of the steel day where the where the individual drove the van through the through the the crowd of people and me switch was ultimately one of my final destinations. And then the other one was days, days after there was a terrorist a an attempted terrorist attack at Notre Dame. So this was the individual that had that loaded the van up with petrol and they were going to detonate. And this was one and probably a year and a half, two years or a year and a half two years before the you know before the fire and at that at Notre Dame. But but I say that because I’m flying I was flying from from New York to De Gaulle. So I’m flying into Paris. So obviously I’ve got you know, days after the the respective terrorist attack and then I’m jumping a commuter from De Gaulle to Nice and then ultimately my final destination was in was in Cannes, France. But the the intelligence the information that I got in advance was was was pretty overwhelming because it and luckily it was a part of an organization that that that had the respective the the global benefit programs, the the travel assistance programs, the intelligence where, you know. Right when I booked my trip, the as soon as I hit, hit submit for airfare and lodging and all that good stuff, I immediately got information from the Intelligence Center that said, Hey, here’s what you have to know because of where we know you’re traveling to. Here’s the intelligence here’s how to conduct yourself, you know, the cliff notes was, where to be and where not to be. And, and then ultimately, you know, the good, all the good to knows. So that was that was a great to have and this is this is even, you know, when I landed in De Gaulle, you know, obviously red eyed and from the from the long track and luckily they you know, as it’s a it’s a it’s a Delta flight with all all Parisian flight crew and they’re obviously serving red wine through the flight. So that helps out tremendously to, obviously to catch Z’s and whatnot anyhow. But, you know, you finally get in, you get to customs and you’re trying to find some Wi Fi just because you’re standing in the line for so long. And once I finally caught Wi Fi, I got another round of correspondence from my organization, that that was saying that was tacked right next to some correspondence from the US State Department issuing warnings to Americans traveling to Paris. I was like, Oh, crap, Oh, great. As I, as I sit here in the in the line, ready to get into the country. But anyway, it was great information, it was good to know, a lot of planning in advance, a lot of planning during ultimately, you know, there was I came through completely and utterly unscathed. But that’s that’s to quote unquote, non hardship location. 

Again, we talked to so many organizations, one in particular that I’ve done a lot of work with over the years, individual in the in the corporate, corporate travel and security realm, in fact, long history in the in aviation, but this individual actually provides a lot of consultation externally, but within her respective organization, she’s responsible for the, for the duty of care programs with an organization. And she says, you know, every, every country around the world carries some sort of risk from either a health care or from a security perspective, every country, including the United States. And that’s again, that’s not the throw out the the FUD technique of the fear, uncertainty and doubt, but it’s just to keep people in an lm I’ll borrow on your terms, just situationally aware, when you’re when you’re traveling, or when you’re moving around. And it’s, it was it was certainly a great learning and then obviously, where we sit here today, there’s a lot that individuals have to have to keep in mind and their organizations have to keep in mind when supporting their their value cross border and globally mobile employees.

It from the insurance component, but it’s it’s healthcare, what individuals have to expect from healthcare in case there’s an emergency, or an unexpected emergency or an individual is, you know, has a regimen of maintenance medications or if they’ve got, you know, ongoing conditions that needs they need to be concerned of when they’re traveling internationally. The security aspect is another huge component that goes part and parcel with everything, because of the unexpected. Now, the and obviously now you bring in the pandemic, which is going to be the the number one headwind that everybody has, you know, front and center that they’re going to be think that that’s the number one risk that individuals have to be concerned with globally. It’s big, it’s it’s, it’s obviously changed. It’s completely changed. mobility. In the near term, we’ll certainly be interested in the in the long term. But there’s there’s a lot of planning that has to go into place with regards to understanding a country by country basis, what’s required from a documentation perspective test, you know, testing and vaccine requirements and, and what you needed to show as far as proof of coverage and documentation what the countries require. 

But the pandemic, frankly, it’s presented a lot of blind spots for individuals and for organizations when they travel because it’s not the it’s not Yes, it’s it’s a big risk. But it’s not the only risk. There are things that are that happen around the globe, even to this day, each and every day that are impervious to a global pandemic. And so, I know I know I’m going I’m I know I’m going on and on and it’s but again, the big call out is it’s it’s what to know before you go. Be prepared. Hopefully the organization has has, has the appropriate programs in place, understands its duty of care to its employees. And on the flip side, and I’ll end with this base. The individual has the duty of loyalty to adhere to those programs that the organization has in place and for enemy individuals that are just traveling for leisure. And whether you’re going to a wedding or you’re going to see your kids or you’re going on a cruise or just you are you are so fatigued by the pandemic and you’re seeing a crack and or a sliver of of an opportunity to travel and you’re like getting The heck out of Dodge and get me to some better location. Please, please, please don’t just don’t just trust what, you know what potential travel plan may be embedded in your corporate credit card or what your domestic healthcare program is going to provide. You got to get the appropriate coverage, really very judicious and travel safely but, but enjoy the experiences because the world is still an amazing place.

Andrew  

Yeah, see, you touched on a couple of things I’d like to ask, you know, how so many people are traveling for work. They’ve got these global plans, or maybe a business travel accident plan, but how often do you believe that people go on their, their, you know, the forum that in Dubai, or their international conference in Lisbon, and they actually share their insurance information with their partner that stayed home? Where if something major happens, they actually know, they know where they are, besides maybe the name of the hotel or they know, their insurance, their travel insurance, they know etc. You know, I think that’s, that’s something that both benefits departments and, and us as employees, often times, forget that those we leave behind need copies of at all. Yes. And is that Do you think that’s going to be more and more communicated that there needs to be some sort of tech sharing ability to share it from one phone to the next with access numbers and things like that, because if you’re in a hospital in a coma, because of something that happened overseas, you know, the the partner may not even know how to reach HR at your company to figure out who the insurance company is.

TC  

And that, as you’re talking through it, I’m shaking my head thinking I, I don’t I think back on myself. And when I’ve traveled or travel internationally, or just traveled domestically. I can’t and I’m, I’m, you know, married, I’ve got a whole brood of kids that I want that I won’t get into details on that wonderful married my high school sweetheart. But I don’t think I think very few times that I ever say, Honey, here’s where I’m at, obviously, you know where I’m going to be. But you don’t know. I mean, maybe, you know, a rough idea when I’m going to be home, you know, when I’m leaving, you know, you don’t know what I’m getting, you have a rough idea as far as when I’m getting home. But But whether it’s itinerary, where exactly I’m gonna be, here’s the coverage, that here’s how I’m covering, I hope, I hope I communicated that. I know, there were plenty of times where I had to, you know, even up to find supplemental coverage from international perspective, but here are the important people that you need to that you need to know obviously, within our own organizations, we you know, when you when you’re filling out your port, for your your profile within your intra company, travel logs and whatnot, they want to they want to make note as far as your emergency contact or your beneficiary who they need to contact in case something happens to you. But you bring up a great, great point. Because even with the the tech, the continued evolution of technology, everything there’s a there’s an app for everything, and I and there’s some real amazing app based technology, mobile technology with regards to you know, travel and your your programs, your benefits, finding a provider telehealth EAP security, you know, having that hot button that you need to hit in case you and experience area in case you experience emergency or getting that intelligence that I talked to earlier, immediately. It’s your edge your handheld. I don’t know if the partner your spouse or significant other has that. I mean, that’s you bring up a great point. 

Allen  

Well, it’s interesting TC, because we’ve also run into cases where people have not signed off on the privacy waiver. So we’ve had somebody in a hospital, a dependent back at home, saying what’s the condition? And the employer or whoever saying what’s the condition and as the intermediary say, we can’t tell you because there is no, there was no form signed because of EU privacy or any type of American, Canadian. Yeah, I mean, the privacy regulations, we can tell you the person’s life. We can tell you where they are, but we can’t give any details. So I highly recommend to folks who listen to ask those questions about where you know, make sure you can sign off and have you know, a privacy waiver done. But to kind of move on to a different thing. TC I know you traveled about and I’ve often travel with you. I’d love you to comment quickly, because one thing I’ve learned from you, is the importance of when you travel on business somewhere that might not be considered a tourist location, still experiencing that trip, maybe staying a little longer, arrive a little earlier, because you can always find something of interest, so travelled to non tourist locations. And the the importance of expanding your horizon there because most locations have something to offer.

TC  

Oh my gosh, yes. What a great, great point. And I will tell you probably nine times out of 10 I’m traveling to locations mainly here in the US because I you know, I sit here in the Midwest, and a majority of my travel has been through, you know, on a week to week basis is through the Midwest. So you’re traveling to towns that people are going to most people have never been in like what’s what’s going on there and really all that interesting there. I had a conversation once with with a gentleman I’ll protect them the anonymous but I was driving I was having a conversation. We started the small talk between conversations I said, Yeah, I’m traveling from between, I’m on Route right now between Detroit and Cleveland. And he goes oh my god from from one armpit to the next. And I said, Okay, I said, Hold on a second. I said, let me ask you a question. Have you ever been to either city and he’s like, actually no. So I mean, at least he at least he owned up on that Yeah, but um but whether it be Dayton, Ohio or Des Moines, Iowa or Sioux Falls, South Dakota or Fargo, North Dakota, or whatever it may be it’s there’s there’s amazing places out there and I actually I’ll give credit where credit is due Allen, I learned this from you and that’s you got to whether you’re traveling personally or traveling for business you’ve got you got a couple options one of which is once you get settled safely in your a nicely and comfortably in your own hotel you can you can kind of kick your feet up and lounge in the hotel or you can get out and get and hit the streets and I learned this from you many years ago that you get out of your room and go experience the the the world around you and the town around you because whether you’re in a small town or whether you’re in a large city there’s there’s so much that there’s there’s the offer from from the internet from entertainment to restaurants to brew pubs or or or to museums. And the list goes on and on. I mean just immediately as I’m talking through this my memory just memories just keep coming streaming through my head. So whether it be you’re in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and you go to the Andy Warhol Museum, or whether you’re in whether you’re in southeast South Dakota and you go see the Corn Palace yeah or whether you’re in Dayton, Ohio and you you go to the Oregon district or the or you know Wright Patterson Air Force Base. 

I actually shared this with with my wife yesterday because we you know, we we took a couple of our kids and we were chasing after one of my oldest for one of his sports or sporting events and so we dropped him off we have to get him there about an hour early we dropped him off and you know, we’re probably about an hour outside of our of our own town. And we did a quick plug in of you know, we’re sitting here for an hour we got a little bit of time to kill let’s try to find something to eat nothing no, no big chain No, no McDonald’s no Wendy’s nothing against those places love them. But we found a we just looked it up did a quick little Google search and found a really cool Vietnamese restaurant, just so we can get get a little Phoa. And, and it was tacked right next to this amazing brew pub that has all these great reviews. So so it was about 45 minutes away from the fields in the pitch my son was playing and and we ventured off, found found a little Vietnamese place, great brew, brew pub, beautiful sceneries were driving around, I looked at my wife and I said this reminds me I mean, this is amazing that it reminds me of when I was always on the road, and now you get to experience what it was like when I was on the road. I was never sitting in my hotel. Obviously when the work was done, but it’s venturing out and seeing the amazing places and getting off the beaten path. And then the beauty of that is you know when you do have those opportunities where you’re connecting with somebody here, hey, if you’re from you’re from Sandusky, Ohio Whoa, small Sandusky Ah, there’s this great place where you get some great fun. And there’s brew pub or you’re from Dayton and you know, you can really throw it out there and it gives you the opportunity to connect with folks and

Allen  

Tremendous, amazing story.

Yeah, it is tremendous. And, you know, to the audience here, when I’ve traveled with TC, the Corn Palace was an amazing experience. Someday, we’ll even talk about the more amazing experience of meeting the only time in my life. I’ve met anybody who asks, he described their occupation as being a mime clown. And I think TC and I almost fell out of our seats with the mine clown. And then of course, that was about 45 minutes to an hour of conversation of what that entails. But we’ll save that for another podcast. TC, you’ve been to a lot of places, we ask all of our guests. Could you share with us maybe an overlooked person, place or experience you would suggest our listeners discover you’ve already paved the way for that by mentioning a couple things. But in I know that you’re a big music fan, I know that you’re very intellectual person, but maybe an overlooked person, place or experience?

TC  

Oh, my gosh, I will. I’ll answer that by bringing all three together and I’ll reflect on the pandemic. And even pre pandemic Can you travel in about one of my favorite things to do two things. Number one, listen to great podcasts. This is one of my favorites. Number two, I read a lot. And I’ve always read a lot. And so pandemic is, you know, with the sheltering in place. And obviously things are opening up a little bit better. But it gave me an opportunity to take my love of music, and I love all things music. I love classic rock. I love alternate. I love it all. So you’re sheltering in place you love to read. So what I did is I just started to read a lot of rock bios, and I probably I’m not a great reader, I’ll tell you that. But I’ve probably burned through probably 20 plus different rock bios and it’s for everything from Nirvana to Pearl Jam to Black Sabbath, and the list goes on and all the Willie Nelson and everything in between and so I’ll just splinter all over the place. But in reading, what I what I decided to do is I would read about a specific artist so what right now I’m reading about The Ramones. And I would read about the great 22 year history of The Ramones. And then what I’d also do is I would find whether it be Spotify or or whatever the I listen to The Ramones while I was reading about the Ramones and then I also worked out and so when I when I be writing my cycle or something like that, I would YouTube The Ramones. So I would watch live concert. So while I was reading about an artist, I’d listened to the artist and I’d watch the artist in concert and then and when and what I found is that when you’re watching them, you hearken back to things that you were reading about or or listening and then when you’re listening to the artist, you’re not just listening to the song, but you You now have a little history of where those artists were when they record the song or what what they’re going through in their respective lives, what influenced it, you know, who is in who is out. But anyway, so I it’s this is a pandemic activity that I will probably be taking on for forever and ever. Amen. But no, I appreciate the ascott but Long Live Rock.

Andrew  

Wow. Love it. Well, tell the folks where they can find you. Because I think you spurred a couple of ideas in people’s minds like I need to reach out to him. We’ve got a just a tribe of listeners, those that subscribe to our podcast that you know they may want to grab or they may want to open LinkedIn right now and find you and reach out. So where can they find you and how would they do? Perfect? Yep,

TC  

You can certainly find me via LinkedIn. I love making LinkedIn connections. Ay ay ay, ay. I spread them as much as I welcome them so yeah, shoot me a note and and then last piece. Again, with the introductions then the the vice president with a Gallagher’s multinational benefits and HR consulting practice quick dub dub dub or Google search for Gallagher and multinational benefits in nature consulting can talk about all the great things that our practice and our firm does, and you can find me there but this was a heck of a lot of fun and an amazing opportunity and like many experiences and opportunities, one that I will never forget. So thank you. Thank you, gentlemen.

Allen  

Thank you for joining us, Anthony TC Williams and to be specific. If you’re looking for him on LinkedIn, it’s Anthony TC Williams. And one other little aside before we leave is you know when TC talked about his flight to De Gaulle TC is six foot nine-ish and often had to fly in the middle seat when would still land with good humor and as a wonderful travel partner but also, you know, always learn something from TC. So Andrew, great interview today. I’ve got a couple of reflexes after you do but what did we learn today?

Andrew  

I, with so many dialogues, it’s sometimes it’s not what said it’s what thought explode from what he said. One of those that came to mind that I think that is so relevant in this day and age is the the fact that, you know, letting, protecting those you leave behind when you travel. And that leads me to a digital asset addendum or a digital asset power of attorney. If something were to happen to you while you’re overseas, you often would assume that Okay, I have a will, they’ve got a copy of it. Well, we are in a in a location independent world where so much of our our valuables are digital assets. And because of the fine print when you collect, connect your email to their system. after you’re gone, your, your survivors can’t legally access it. So get that added. It’s not just letting them know which hotel you’re staying in and what insurance policy is protecting you. But leaving with a digital asset document that gives them the right to login after you if you’re you know, out of reach.

Allen  

Well, you know, that’s that’s a great call out up. What I learned today, and I’ll be honest with you is somebody who spends so much time on the road, whether it’s flying or driving is to teach his point about not only podcast because we podcast and we learn a lot for folks but I love the immersion theory as on reading about a subject and immersing yourself in it. And through multiple medias and really getting to have a deeper understanding and I that’s a practice I’m going to put in the place. And I do have a few books out there that I can do that with so a great learning today. So I hope you enjoyed our podcast today. We want to remind everybody The New Nomads, not just the podcast, it’s a community of people, ideas and spirit, helping you take advantage of that location independent lifestyle. Please subscribe to The New Nomad. You can find us at TheNewNomad.net or InsuredNomads.com. Please travel well. Please share your adventures with others travel safe and cheers. Until next time