The Work from Anywhere Myth or Not? with John Lee | TNN28

Allen  

Welcome to The New Nomad podcast. We have a great guest today John Lee will be joining us from the Work From Anywhere team. I think we’re gonna have a really wide ranging freewheeling conversations. But before we get to that I’d love to bring in my co host, Andrew Jernigan, who for those of you on YouTube can see a very interesting background. Where are you at today, Andrew?

Andrew  

Whoa, hi Allen. I’m joining you from Birmingham, Alabama, the beautiful Birmingham you can see the Vulcan statue in my background. It is it’s good to be home as well as visiting advisors, investors, team members here in the Birmingham area this week. I’ll be at another one of the Alabama-Germany partnership events and which we’re a sponsor of and yeah, it’s it’s good to be in Birmingham. Where are you? Where are you today, Allen?

Allen  

Well, I am I’m back at the at the home front here in Wilmington, Delaware. And, and thankfully looks like we’re gonna have a nice week ahead. Which which Well, one of the great things about being home it allows me to continue with my hobbies and avocations outside of work. I, too, like you are a remote worker and I know that after a long weekend of tennis, I now can get to the week ahead of you know getting some work done and making sure the lawn looks wonderful. How about yourself and or what do you do in your spare time from a hobby perspective because one of the things I’ve been reading recently is folks that don’t have communal events or hobbies tend to be less happy and satisfied with not only their own life but their work existence too.

Andrew  

Yes, I as I reflect on that Allen, I think you know, I’m still a dad of young kids. And a lot of my hobbies revolve around my kids hobbies and their passions. Because you know, they’re in lacrosse and other things I took my kid to camp yesterday, my youngest son. And so that’s one thing yard work is one of those things I really enjoy if I’ve got the right tools. Yeah, but it’s and luckily I do have a big yard these days so that that helps along with some wonderful pets. I know pets don’t qualify as a hobby but having a puppy does require a lot of time and energy these days. So some of the things that reading is is something that I put a high priority on. So it’s that off work time you know I know it’s it’s swinging the pendulum quite far to say reading can be a hobby. It can’t it’s not a hobby it’s a necessity in life really. So that’s it doesn’t really fall in that spectrum but I throw it in there anyway.

Allen  

Well it’s important you know, whatever is relaxing, and and fun is good. Well, let’s bring John in. Because I know John has traveled around the world and he had a really interesting blog post about how you know, being a remote worker, being a location independent individual allows people some freedom to chase their hobbies, their dreams, their aspirations. John, welcome aboard. Where are you at today?

John  

I am joining in from Limerick in Ireland. A pleasure to be on your show today, guys, Allen and Andrew.

Allen  

So you know, one of the sidebars we had earlier, John, that I think is really interesting is the travels that you’ve had, you know, with your daughter and some of the experiences that you had. And I know we’re gonna get into a lot of depth of conversation. But how rewarding that must have been for you to be able to share I don’t know how many countries you can share with the group here that your daughter’s joined you add in some of the experiences there. 

John  

That’s right. So I my eldest daughter, Rosa, by the time she was 17 months old, she’d been to 23 countries, she’s four now. But for her I mean it’s just seeing the growth that she went through. By the time we finished our couple of months for example in in Southeast Asia, we’re based in Phuket in Thailand. She could do the Thai grieving and she had just grown so much from the experience I mean, I literally was traveling around the world with my wife, T, and it was something probably the happiest moment of our entire lives at that stage I really left an indelible mark which we’ll never forget.

Allen  

It is interesting when you see the world through a younger set of eyes sometimes in things that that get the attention and it’s the simple things right. I remember the trip to Thailand, there it What a wonderful place. But I think at the age that you bring, you know, I still remember when my parents took me like age eight, for the first time to Scotland and I remember that trip probably as much as anything. Do you think of impressionable young minds, it’s even more important Sometimes to get folks out 

John  

What it is, for me it is. I mean, for me traveling and seeing other cultures has broadened the, you know, my mindset, my ability to, you know, to think differently to the empathy of seeing things from different people’s eyes. And I think that’s what kids get as well. I go back to a time in Thailand, I never cried. But I actually did cry that last day, we collected Rosa from the crash after six months, because of the incredible love that they showed her. I mean, other cultures, they, they have a different way of dealing with kids. And so you know, they can only grow from that experience, again, gone back to that particular point of our life really left America, Rosa, as well as ourselves.

Allen  

It’s funny, when you also travel with kids, you see how cultures handle children differently. I remember when we traveled with our kids to Scandinavia, there was a playground we went to, that had some things that you could really crawl up on very high. And but there was an asphalt base, and I was thinking, you know, I remember talking to some parents and you know, in the United States, there would be rubberized or chips. And, and they looked at me incredulously and they’re like, Yeah, but isn’t that how they learn? Not the fall? You know, it? It was just a really interesting difference. You know, when you when you raise kids there, you’re in Ireland. Now, how is it different with the, with the children being back home?

John  

Well, first off, they’re close to family, which is great. I mean, for me, I’m away from D. And I, for us, our Irish culture is something extremely important to our identity. And you know, on the one hand, we want to travel the world want to experience in different cultures, we want our kids to have that. But at the same time, we want to give them at least a bit of base of spending time where you know, giving them some access to this Irish culture that we grew up with. And for sure, we’re definitely going to go traveling again, we’ve, you know, in the next year or two, there’s a good chance we will go off to some of the parts of the world, wherever that will take us. But certainly for now, it’s just exactly what we need. We actually had baby number three, only about seven or eight weeks ago. So a little boy, Berra, and yeah. So we’ve been we’ve been pretty busy.

Andrew  

That’s, that’s great to hear. You know, because having three kids myself, one of them born in Ghana, the other two, you know, all three having multiple passports, it’s, it’s critical that they have the home culture. And you know, even we named our puppy recently and, and my wife being from Brazil, many of the names that she wanted to, to name had a more Brazilian tone to them, you know, Sophia, rather than Sophie, we landed on Sophie for this golden doodle. And she wanted Sophia. And, and Nicolas was like, No, we live in the US. We’re not doing a Brazilian name. And, you know, it’s instilling the home culture is so crucial.

John  

It really is no point on that I’m sure which is fascinating. So far, we’ve had we’ve had babies in different countries. And it isfascinating to compare the Dutch system, for example, where, you know, hospitals are an absolute last resort, you’re very often not even go near them versus Ireland, where it’s seen as a medical condition as if you’re almost sick almost. And everything is run through the hospital. So the experience also having kids in different countries was an eye opener for us as well.

Allen  

So it’s interesting of some of the different podcasts that I know we’ve gone down a couple different avenues here. The one thing I’d love to ask you about, I read your blog, and there’s some amazing blogs I recommend to our audience to at the end to read a few of these, but one that really stood out to me, can you share with our audience, the blog that was the work from anywhere myth, I thought that this is actually something I hear about all the time when? Well, frankly, I have a lot of people who listen to this podcast who say I’m not necessarily going to be as adventurous as those people who pack up and move everywhere I travel, etc. but they just can’t get their mind about the work from anywhere myths, so speak, I’d love to turn it over to you.

John  

Well, yeah, so the fascinating thing, first of all, is how we define this market. So pre COVID, we had digital nomads, who are a small percentage of the market, going from behalf percent, maybe 1% of the travel market. But what’s really exciting right now is the whole concept of working from home and what that means from work from anywhere. And that’s the market that’s going to absolutely take off or you’ve had people that are working from home, either in a hybrid situation or fully high like work from home that saved themselves well, I might take two or three weeks holidays were working abroad in Spain or Mexico wherever it is, but then they want to say to their employer, I’d like to take out a couple of weeks onto that and maybe a couple of months, maybe two or three months working, you know, working abroad and that’s the fascinating one for me, that’s the one it’s it’s something travels very emotive, especially being locked in indoors for a year and a half of pandemic and people that are kind of seeing the world and pick it travel a bit differently. There’s a real kind of a latent bursting need to or traveling again. When you combine that with work, it gets very exciting. But the work money we’re myth was more tactless a tapping into the challenges that it’s not that easy. You’ve got to watch out, you can’t just take off and go work abroad for a couple of months because let’s just say won’t take one example. duty of care if you have an accident, all of a sudden, you know, your employer can become at risk and could be sued for it. Also, for example, personal taxes, your own personal taxes. There’s lots of other different angles this you’ve really got to watch out for that can all of a sudden explode into a huge risk. If you don’t manage it correctly. If you manage it correctly, it can be great for all parties.

Allen  

Do you think the digital nomad visas though are making it easier for people to your issues are always the tax issues? Yeah, the tax is no expert on that. But you think the digital nomad visa is helping a little bit.

John  

It’s an absolute game changer. But not all digital nomad visas are born equal. So some digital nomad visas, they wrap around tax, and they include everything. And they’re, they’re fantastic, because they’re like a business visa, and they make sure that you won’t have to be, let’s say, subject to local taxation in that country. Whereas other visas, they give you a business visa to work there. But the tax side is not quite clear, you could potentially become tax resident. So again, not all born equal, but the ones that do come here for a tax, they are an absolute game changer. And I think they’re the ones to watch out for. Right? I mean, already, we had Ireland’s say, number two, and government deal breaker was saying that the Ireland’s pay personal tax rate is going to become a huge risk for the migration of you know, very, very high income tech workers migrating abroad, either going abroad permanently or on this vacation, for example. And it’s something nice to watch very, very closely. And there’s the second and third and fourth degree impacts from this. Nobody knows. But there have to be very, very closely watched.

Andrew  

Yes, what’s what’s the case now will not be the case in a year and a half, two years from now. Because countries, more countries will have these visas because they’re wanting to attract people to come spend money, rent the expensive homes, expensive compared to what locals might pay. But yet the home country, the passport country is losing all that revenue, potentially unless they left their home as a rental property. So it’s it’s a thing that we’re going to have to watch as society changes this global workforce shifts and taxation. You mentioned duty of care, the liability, the assumptions that people think that Oh, my insurance travels, or the health scheme, and my home country will cover me if something happens abroad, which really is just due to ignorance and not having international exposure. And so it’s there, there are so many things at play, and then you take in schooling, and banking.

John  

100% this goes on and on what’s what’s absolutely fascinating is what people could get away with pre pandemic, when it was just digital nomads for a small part of the market is just not going to be the case. So things like, you know, travel and health insurance, things like personal tax corporation, tax of those mobile workers, you know, things of duty of care, employment law, those risks just cannot be just cannot be ignored. And there’s a there’s a real risk for either the individuals or the employers to put their head in the sand of this, it’s going to completely blow up in their face. And I think that’s one of the reasons why a lot of the more traditional, maybe conservative companies have just kind of put their head in the sand of this and just said, No, just a blanket, no, this is not happening. And also potentially on the reasons why some of the bigger tech companies will no one’s said no initially, but then with a lot of pushback from their workers said they try and reconsider it. So it’s a very fast moving space. And I think the innovative solutions that tackle this, the companies that tackle this issue aerator on, they’re gonna have a huge advantage from a talent, attraction, talent retention perspective, you know. 

Allen  

Well, I think you touched upon that. And when you plugged in, I thought was really interesting. Also remote work and the inversion of the work pyramid. And maybe you’ll share with the audience this, but it does kind of tie into that. I saw a number that was only 4% of employees want to return to work full time at the office. But explain to us a little bit about the inversion of the work pyramid. I thought it was really interesting reading.

John  

Yeah, so we’ve been around for hundreds of 1000s of years. And you know, the work hierarchy and how we’ve organized ourselves, you know, going back to the tribes going back to, you know, even you know, going back, you know, at our most primitive forms, you always had a hierarchy, you had a tribal leader, you know, who directed the rest of the pyramid on where things were going. And that model of how we work has been in the case for so many, many hundreds of 1000s of years. But literally a token to a remote work came along that it really shifted the pyramid upside down. So what do I mean by that? Well, basically, every CEO was in almost every country, in every industry around the world, more or less, as if they all banded together and they said, Listen, we’re going back to the office in September. The whole world’s employees more or less, turn it up and that turned it upside down and said hold on a second, we’re not doing it. We are not going back to the office. So that’s in many ways, the power power dynamic of management’s and how, you know, companies are organized has completely shifted. And again, going back to the second and territory impacts, it means that a structural shift, or is that a temporary one of the interests of you guys, your thoughts? Why sense is this is a real structural shift in the companies that don’t really understand that and think ahead, what this means are the ones that are going on exactly.

Andrew  

Yes, it’s it is a shift of the foundation of how companies will operate. from, you know, looking at our scenario where we have to say, okay, we were remote from our founding, not as the reactionary measure, before pandemic, when we started, we were a remote company. But that means claims, that’s normally meeting in a building is remote around the world. That means crucial aspects are are joining in from zoom calls and, and things that are just normally not done this way. And those that are having to shift have a much sharper curve of adjustment, emotional, and just the psychological effect of those who are so accustomed to those face to face meetings. Those, here’s a piece of paper I just printed off, I put it on your desk this morning, for you the sign versus the signature process for everything. And as we delve into this more and more, I think that there’ll be a lot of technologies that come and go as they try to solve some of the needs. And there will be employees that say I can’t hack it, I’m going to move to a company where I can go to an office, I just can’t do this remote, this work from home mentality. So though it’s going to go from that ball is going to bounce in several directions, and different people meeting their personality types, different managers, and executives are going to have to shift as well, and some will not be able to make it. So this is an interesting ride that we’re on.

John  

Well, I think so. And I think, especially if you look at the industry, by industry, because some industries just don’t suit remote. I mean, you know, if you’re a hotel, you can’t, he can’t, you’ve got to be there in person, if you’re, you know, highly regulated manufacturer, how you regulated bank, for example, you can’t just, you know, send people abroad, for example to do or workcation abroad or anything like that. And on the other hand, you know, while remote work is where it’s going, there’s no question people want that, at the same time trying to find the balance from a company culture perspective between meeting up, somehow facilitating face to face, you know, there are key relationships built. So whether that’s in company retreats, or having some periodic catch ups in the office, or whatnot, or whatever, like you said, it’s also the evolution of, for example, virtual reality technology, or very sophisticated video call technology. I think Google are working on something like that as well. You know, there’s gonna be some exciting solutions here. But I think the shakeout of this is gonna be fascinating, because I really don’t know where it’s going to end up. But clearly, remote is going to be a big practice.

Allen  

Well, you know, John, I think there’s an environmental component of this too. Not only do people want to work in a better work environment, but I used hop on an airplane for, you know, business meetings, for lack of better word was, you know, handshake meetings in, you know, just kind of building relationship. But when we did do conference calls, they tended to be without seeing the other person. And now we’ve, we’ve made the transition, I think the pandemic actually accelerated this process by 10 years, but you know, now I think twice before hopping on an airplane, and, you know, having my environmental footprint larger than it needs to be when I could do a Zoom or Teams call with you. Right? And, and, to me, you know, as we see a lot of the environmental impacts of travel, and many of the people in this work for home community are very passionate about the environment. A lot of them are surfers, hikers, you know, be able to get out with their children, we want to better for our children. I think that you know, working from home, it actually turned out to be a blessing that way too. And wondering what your thoughts might be on some of the unintended consequences of working from home and you had also another great pickup on how culture individual personality and organizational culture direct how people are influenced in this area?

John  

Well, exactly. So if we go back to the pyramid metaphor, and instead take it from a different angle, you know, how we behave in workers is influenced you know, as I see it between our individual personality or national culture, and also the organizational culture side of it. But this is where if you look at even just for example, put your own individual personality versus your nationally culture and culture me when I have been asked to do keynotes around the world, they often survey the audience and I asked them, How much are you your personality versus your national culture? And it’s always the answer is it Either maybe 25% personality 75% national culture or vice versa, or 5050. But the bottom line is national culture plays a big part. And I think when we look at it, for example, from a remote first context, the amount of different national cultures we’re now dealing with, but are the companies equipped to train people to address those challenges, and then you mix it with the organizational culture, but then also managing the individual personalities, I think it’s a real melting pot. But addressing those three parts of the the risk of the of the pyramid, let’s say, is going to be really crucial. And I think like you said, it’s just accelerated the whole dynamic of this 10 years ago, but by 10, it takes 10 years.

Allen  

Well, I mean, I look at this, that if you if you get the national culture wrong, when you’re doing, like opening a new store, or your organizational culture is not matched up well with the individual, etc. It’s a three legged stool, any one of those edges fall off, you fall over. And there was some great stories that you had had out on your blog about that, but it really resonated with me. Well done.

John  

Do you know why, though, as well, like, it’s fascinating why it’s so relevant now. I mean, we can’t go back to the I like talking about how we have been around for hundreds of 1000s of years, but we did first start off with individual personality. We then moved to our tribal organizational culture, but it is only the last 30 years that national culture really has become so important because of the deregulation of the airline industry and the creation of the internet and especially with remote work. And the Internet has just again just mature and accelerated so much since then. So I think that is one of the reasons why it is something that’s going to get more and more of a focus over the coming 10 years.

Andrew  

Well, John, this is this is that point where we’ve got to ask you, you know, you’ve traveled to dozens of countries, you’ve spoken to these major corporations around the world in your various roles throughout the years. You’ve you’ve seen a lot ,you’ve lived different places on expat assignments. Would you share with this tribe that is “The New Nomad” no longer the expat, no longer just the location independent, the wanderer; what is the one overlooked place, person, or experience you choose that you feel that people should experience?

John  

okay so I’m a big believer that we are all a ball of energy connected in many ways to the universe to each other the energy we give off ourselves is you know, the energy we get back in many ways and for me, I was hugely impacted by the Pyramids of Chi in wood in Bali it was in a way in many ways a spiritual home place for me I just had such an impact on both myself and Dee. I was also nice about it wouldn’t Valley is you had the Green School and I would absolutely love to send our, our, our little clan over there at some stage and spend some time there. It’s a very much a very innovative teaching style, which connects people to nature, spirituality, meditation, all sorts of different techniques, and it would be something I would highly recommend for anyone that’s that way inclined, that is open to something, offering something different to their kids. You know, because I suppose it’s so many ways it’s not just about us, it’s really in many ways more so better kids and the impact we can leave behind them. The way our parents left you know, and in fact behind us as well. So certainly the Pyramids of Chi, and the Green School of Bali would be very high on my own personal to do list again.

Andrew  

That’s interesting. You know, reminds me of the Digital Nomad Weekthat’s coming up in December of this year, December 2021. In Bali, and online, that’s digitalnomadweek.com. They’re expecting over 10,000 people attending but either in person or online. And many of the speakers are Bali based. And just encourage you everyone if you would check out digitalnomadweek.com. And I say that I’m reminded of it just because of the strong influence that Bali and the remote worker force has in the world. It’s it’s one of the first places that people go, I believe in this, in this plight, this journey of working around the world. Why would you say that’s true, John?

John  

Well, I mean, for me it’s a there’s something special when you get a bunch of like minded people who are in many ways, you know, they’re your mind is your find your tribe, isn’t it? I mean, we’re all in many ways, trying to find our tribe in life. And when you get those like minded people, the energy that you get from learning, the growth, the impact that leaves me is something that you’ve got to experience and so, for me, that’s the beauty of life is finding like minded people finding your tribe. And yeah, that’s one of the places that’s why they left such an impact on me.

Allen  

So to that end, folks that have listened to this podcast, how can they find you? And also if you could just mention quickly about the your website www.WFA.team, which I thought was tremendous if somebody has a tax or question along that so I’d love you to share where people can can find you and work from home from anywhere tight and your team.

John  

Yeah, absolutely. please do check out our website WFA and our team, we’ve got a free tool to help promote workers and digital nomads assess their tax residency risks when working abroad, which is the number one risk from what the employers employee perspective. So very happy to help out we’ve got a global network of tax experts that are more than happy standby waiting to help.

Allen  

Fantastic. Well, thanks for joining us today. I’ve been and I do recommend to our audience, please check out John’s blog. You’ve got the website, we’ll have that in the show notes. Fantastic conversation today. It’s always great to learn something new. Andrew, as we always tie together, what did you learn today?

Andrew  

The thing that stands out the strongest is how that John brought up, we didn’t go deeply into it. But is the duty of care liability that employers have these days that they never had acknowledged previously. They didn’t have to because they just said no. But now they’re, as they’ve given into pressure. They’re saying yes, but their HR department doesn’t realize their insurance broker doesn’t realize the risk involved. And so that’s, that’s one of the things that just has me pondering. And I know you’re, you’ve spoken around the world on that island. So it’s, I’m kind of feeding that one to you to see what you say in response. 

Allen  

Well, I mean, there’s the duty of care, you know, from the employee, from the player, and then there’s the duty of loyalty from the employee back to the firm. And I think it’s great. And it does tie into what John meant about the inversion of the work pyramid. I think there’s got to be a great balance here. But, you know, we need to still send people into situations where they have the preparation, you know, things like a panic button, if something happens, the information so they’re vaccinated properly before they go. And then the other hand from an employer perspective, they don’t want to have a liability that they weren’t sure of, because somebody ambled into that location. So it’s a really interesting balance, isn’t it? Andrew, between duty of care, duty of loyalty, and I think, don’t you feel in the next few years, that’s going to be something that’s really going to shake out, and we’re going to see, you know, how that plays out and where the balance is met.

Andrew  

It is, I think, one of my calls that is taking place later today,  is actually government officials, asking if they can partner with us, because they want to make sure that everyone coming into the country has coverage in place. So asking if we will partner with their country, as they open up their borders, and at a grander scale to foreigners coming in. So yes, not just from the employee-employer, but also the host nation is taking into account their responsibility in this in this picture, which is very fascinating.

Allen  

That’s almost set for a podcast and another date because that will be tremendous. And I’d love to learn more on that. So great conversation today. Thank you listeners that as you all know, The New Nomad is not just the podcast, it’s a community of people, ideas and spirit, helping you take advantage of that location independent lifestyle. Please travel well, and we look forward to talking to you again, in the not so distant future. Cheers.